boring bullion
 

My purpose in this thread is to recommend the coin collecting hobby.

Buying and speculating and trading bullion is fine and everything but essentially a price speculation game and hence it is just work.

Coin collecting by contast is entertainment, an individual and a social activity that brings the refined enjoyment of long term self directed education enjoyment and aquisitions. Its like building your own museum. I am no great numismatist but what I have put into this I have gotten a hundred times out.

I find it sad that folks are always impeaching this fine art here, by appealing to apocalyptic fantasies of TSHTF which may or may not transpire and even if they do will probably not be TEOTWAWKI. Meanwhile you have a life, right?

Dont miss the chance to start enjoying the coin collecting hobby alongside your PM bullionatic activities. :beer:

Re: boring bullion
 

I sometimes troll the other coin forums. last night I was reading coin talk forum and some bozo was recommending Simon Weaselgnaw for a US commemorative. Can you believe that? And they were all like Er who's that again? OH yeah I guess so. Hey-- I'm not joining THAT forum!

Any other coin forums which have good information? I dont want to waste a lot of time hearing some bozo's opinions unless they are sharp and well informed. GIM has a pretty good ratio of knowledgeable users to meetooers, which is why I continue to like this place. plus I like the VB software, its faster than a lot of others

Re: boring bullion
 

Hey, I dipped my toes into this whole thing by starting w/ bullion. And I kept it real for about 4 years buying silver rounds and Eagles and Maples & little else. Like others here I used to scoff at numismatics. Well, I still believe that modern numismatics (grading new & plentiful commemoratives, gold & silver eagles) is downright stupid. But thats not stopped me from profiting from it.

Only for the last year or so have i been coming to the realization that if one's willing to put in the time to learn about numismatics, then the potential for profit is much greater. Lesson one is not to mess with it unless you know your stuff. Which entails reading tons of books and attending auctions and shows and shootin the breeze til it hurts.
I went to an estate auction last weekend just for a raw 1895-O Morgan in supposedly uncirculated condition. Check the price guides & pop. reports on that one (!)
I'm kicking myself for not trusting my grading skills better; I lost my nerve when the bidding crossed $3000. I figured MS-62 ...Was it or wasnt it? Big bucks rides on that. Oh well, next time maybe.

Re: boring bullion
 

Tag for info.

Re: boring bullion
 

well I would be afraid to bite off that and chew because I sometimes have a hard time telling if a coin has been cleaned or not. My dealer had a walker in his $10 boxc the other day that looked MS to me, and I really eyeballed it thinking it wouldnt have been in there if it wasnt cleaned, but he said yep and look here at these hairlines or whatever. Funny thing he said "It would have been a monster if they handt cleaned it." But I couldnt tell. SO I would be afraid to buy the thing and get a clunker. now, genuinely scarce coins are still saleable even if cleaned or damaged, and you know ANACS and NCS will holder them and identify the defects; but you will take a big discount on value.

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There were some 'big boys' at this auction, or at least they did a great job at feigning the part... you know, Pat Riley lookalikes with slicked hair, sport coats, expensive shoes and huge rings and bracelets and all the rest. Looking over the coins with care... "players" if you will...
Well, they were the ones doing the high bidding well after ubiquitous dumpy Joe coin dealer quit. Now that in itself aint a guarantee, but it dont exactly say nothin' either.
Hairlines dont necessarily indicate what TPG's would classify as cleaning. It's pretty much understood that most old morgans that have good luster have been doctored in some fashion.

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most of the coin guys I have met who really know are not very slick looking that is for sure. I dress better than all of the ones I go to for learning so I should know. LOL

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I agree 100%....Bullion is Boring. Thats why I'm into Ghetto Gold, those filthy copper pennies, in addition to other coin roll hunting. Still find Indians and wheats in circulation. Not getting rich, but gives me a fun activity to pass time while PM's make their slow climb to payday.

Ghetto Gold is a term "coined" (thats punny) by one of my customers, just wanted to give the ND guy his credit. :beer:

Re: boring bullion
 

Ghetto gold, thats funny. I consider myself a Hobo silver investor with my CRH- and I am very pleased with the results haha. Silver has been costing ME about $2.30 an ounce and I have sold alot for melt- a hobby that pays for itself is a very good hobby indeed.:beer:
I got a Kennedy book and a Franklin book that I am slowly filling- I still only think of it as bullion but this gives ME some entertainment value as well. I sell what I don't need or don't want (40%ers), duplicate proofs go for a buck apiece as soon as I have 10 or 20 makes it worthwhile to ship. Life is good, HH Mark

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Right, it's real entertainment to learn some slick Dick coin dealer has just robbed you of your hard earned FRNs when he sold you those "rare" but over-priced coins and left town. :wink: At least the price (both buy and sell) of that "boring" bullion is listed for the whole world to see.

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The only problem with collectors items is you have to find somebody who thinks just like you to buy it from you.
I think its a great hobby but its not for me.

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Hey, you're a real smart ass. Let me talk back in the same tone. You may present like an ignorant chump but when I walk into a place, I know the basics about what I am there for, I am wise enough to appreciate my limitations and the wide range of my own ignorance, and I dont buy anything outside the range of my own limited knowledge.

So when I shop in a coin store, I am buying two things. Firstly, whatever Iam there for which will always be a good deal or I will not be buying. Secondly, I am there for increased knowledge.

Now on to my theme. Bullion is boring. Its boring because its a simple game. Too simple for me to spend much effort on. You check spot, and buy as low as you can in relation. Then sell high. ZZZZZZZZ that is trading. that is not a hobby that is a job. I have a day job that makes more than I could make trading that way anyhow.

No I look for a hobby that challenges my intellect. The vast array of choices in coin collecting, combined with the minute details of mintages and prices across the range of qualities, the details involved in grading this and that particular coin-- those things are taxing on my brain, to juggle around in my memory and on the spot, and I enjoy the hell out of the mental exercise.

If other people dont like it fine. But for me, I do.

Re: boring bullion
 

I collect Silver, if it's pretty and shiny, all the better, but either way it's still silver. Spot is what I base my purchases on. The problem I have with grading is that it "appears to me" to be very subjective to the seller's opinion of the grade. I have a friend who is into proofs and graded stuff, buys on ebay a fair amount, yet is constantly bickering with sellers because the graded and slabbed MS70 coins he just recieved are scratched and such. Thats another headache I personally don't have time for. So I stick with purchasing based on Spot. It is what it is!

Renegade

Re: boring bullion
 

Dont you know nowadays people just buy the holder and not the coin. If it sez NGC or PCGS on it, it's all good in the 'hood. Dings are no matter... I asked my favorite dealer to look at his '06 Buffalo PCGS MS70. No need for a loupe, 2 sizeable dents front & center on the obverse. I didnt mean to be a prick and break his heart, and so I hesitated, but OK, I just could no longer stand it and said with a chuckle... "hmm... look here, there are two dings staring you in the face"... he just just picks it up and sez, yeah, you're right, and laughed because he knew it made no difference.

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Just my opinion so don't take it as a rip on your hobby....

There are too many fakes and misrepresented coins, too many subjective grades, too many scam artists and shady coin dealers, too many bs stories about how your coin has this and that flaw in order to low ball you on a buy price, etc....for my tastes. After cutting my teeth dealing with gun show dealers....coin show dealers are very similar. Turned me off to numismatics totally. I will still run a deal if I see one but for the most part, I'll let someone else part with their FRN's.

Bullion is what it is. There is a spot price. A buy price and a sell price. Take it or leave it. And after all, bullion gets high enough and everything will go in the same melt pot in the end.....

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Ha Victor I hear you there. They are indeed a lot alike. I too had a long gun show phase before the present. It was a good experience. helped me to resist market hysteria, helped me to realize that supplies are out there even when all the bozos are calling shortage, helped me to realize that a lot of vendors will rip anybody off for a short term gain and just figure its not worth it to build long term relationships.

But you got to find the ones that are.

Authenticity is big deal. I am not buying off ebay period. I only buy from people who I know where I can find them. Because I am not new to this, if I were to detect that I had bought a fake from a vendor, I would go to that vendor and they will buy it back. I am very confident of this or I wont buy.

Also because I am collecting I am really not selling that much. I got into this via bullion and made some money selling bullion and plowed it into the hobby for the most part. From time to time I load up a dip on the bullion with an eye to sell. That is just income producing activity though not hobby activity nor enjoyment, really.

Not at all. You are wrong about that. We still have Roman silvers trading for under a hundred. THose coins have been around a long time havent they? Not all just dug up the other day, either. They've withstood a lot of big price spikes.

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Numismatics is a species of fine art appreciation. It combines the portraiture aspects of painting with the three dimensional aspect of sculpture. It combines history and economics and fuses them with art. It calls for the museum conservator's sense of discrimination, taste, and appreciation for significance.

If you are not interested in those things, then you will find numismatics is not for you.

Ever since I have been a kid I have been a big museum goer, and numismatics was really the first thing I have done personally in the way of collection that I could really afford. I mean what other authentic artifacts can you find fashioned by say a Seleukid king, from before the time of Christ? I have seen some pottery of a common nature such as oil lamps from that era, on ebay, but really those are not my cup of tea.

Re: boring bullion
 

You and I are on the same page, Renegade. I'll take boring and reliable over slick, shiny marketing any day. I've got a bit of bullion but prefer 90% Ag coins just because of availability and the fact that everyone knows what they are. I detest most marketing types, but that's a whole other issue that I won't go into here. :D

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Ahh, why bother this site with your info. Most don't appreciate your post here. Most won't take the time to learn how they can profit and have silver and gold in their hands with smaller markup than they are paying right now. Fine art, forget that altogether. Let's just answer our front door with a glock in our hand.

Re: boring bullion
 

Seleukus Nikator - I've been watching this thread since it started and not posted before because, frankly, for two years a handful of numismatic collectors and I have been posting in favor of collecting.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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So we are clear - the collectors here, for the most part, have lots of bullion collected on the side, but are part of thehobby because we love coins.<o:p></o:p>
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FLRacingGal and I started the threads about the Lunar series - we took a lot of knocks till - one day, things changed and a lot of people got on the lunar bandwagon.<o:p></o:p>
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There are other examples........<o:p></o:p>
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But this post from Dude, pushed me to post..........<o:p></o:p>
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If he - or anyone else - isn't interested in the topic - let them pass it by and not post........((and let me say here - again, so I am clear - his post might be from someone equally frustrated that collecting threads get so little response, or he might be posting a put down - hard to say sometimes when someone posts, what tone they intend.........I will assume he did not mean it in a harsh way.))<o:p></o:p>
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There are people here who DO collect outside the basic bullion.......and we enjoy the hobby. Many of those who used to post on these topics appear to have left, I don't see too many of them anymore.<o:p></o:p>
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But that doesn't mean others are not reading, or interested..........<o:p></o:p>
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And do not allow ANYONE to undermine or smash you attempt to do something different.....<o:p></o:p>
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And, finally, to those who do not get the hobby or have interest........why not try leaving those alone who do.........<o:p></o:p>
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I for one do not care what the bullion-only babies think..........I am having fun, making lots of money - so you are entitled to your beliefs.......no, prejudices, cause most who badmouth it know nothing worth knowing about it.<o:p></o:p>
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PREJUDICE - the act of pre-judging, or judging without knowledge or research.............<o:p></o:p>
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Yeah, those are the opinions I REALLY want to read................NOT!!!!!<o:p></o:p>
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Re: boring bullion
 

Sorry if you got me wrong. I do well in numis and want to share. I will be starting a numis portal - not just a posting board, but a full blown article, forum, photo, calendar, etc ... site.

Send me a PM and I will send you a link when it is ready. Delivery date is 05/25/08.

Re: boring bullion
 

I have a some bullion. It;s done well.
I have some numismatics (though most of mine may not be included in the average 'collectors' definition of such- early year Pandas etc- but I do have some real interesting other stuff too thanks to my brother).
My brother is a big collector though.
The numi-bullion I own have fared much better. Much better.
The ounce of silver I bought in 2002 has more than doubled. Crowding tripled.
The 1987 Silver Panda I bought same year had close to quintupled.
I learned early , from TomD and Ho and others that this forum are pretty hostile to anything vaguely numismatic, and i consider it a blessing really.
Times will come when another mania hits. tech stocks and Real estate have been there and done that.
You may see teotwawki and laugh at numismatic value, but I don't.
There will always be people with money. And big money.
They have cycled through numismatics and will return to them.
Plus you relaly need to understand that numismatics has been a very limited population , when considered globally. It's been a US/UK/$Europe thing in the past.
I read somewhere that the number of members who joined the China numismatic association the last couple years is greater than the number that have been members in ours ever.
I saw a show on stamps in China saying basically the same thing on the Discovery channel a year or two ago.
So much of the rest of the world does not (yet) have a numismatic base. What will happen when that changes? I think this is what Seleukus sees maybe and i could not agree more, It's why I especially like coins from larger pop , yet poorer economically, countries.
I just don't see much of a downside when you factor out difference between spot and cost ( if that makes sense).
I read only a few newsletters now, my favorite being Maybury's. His predictions are for numismatic coins to outperform every other asset class in the coming years. He's been right more often than most.
Buy good stuff, the best in class in your price range maybe, or other stuff that may have alternative considerations (Pandas and demographics for example) and you'll fare well in coins imo.
Get to know your stuff though.
Specialize in a particular subset. become one of the "experts".
Have a finger on the pulse, know the ins and outs, the reputable dealers, the BS from the real stuff.\

Re: boring bullion
 

When I'm out there looking for collectible pieces I want to feel history. There's not a shred of history in those dull thirteen-in-a-dozen US gold eagles. Genuine eagles that did circulate and show traces of wear, those are fantastic in my opinion. Mint state coins don't have any appeal to me. What's so spectacular about a coin which was dumped into a burlap sack and hauled to some vault where it stayed the rest of its life?

I don't like bullion. I pay a premium any day of the week for an XF or AU $20 from 19-whatever than spot price for a boring US gold eagle. I have also some goals set for myself. Currently I am working on lesser known rarities, for example I am putting together a 1895 Philly type set of US gold coins. All common coins, except the $2�, only 6000 minted. I find it a much bigger reward to find such a treasure than moving from coinshow to coinshow and piling up bullion.

Re: boring bullion
 

I do think that if/when gold surges again in a big way, say $1500+, that old US gold in MS-Gem state is gonna fly to many multiples. Those that stick to bullion are gonna miss out.

Re: boring bullion
 

I have been reading your posts here for a long time and always appreciate them.

One of the things I like about the numi guys here is they are sharper than the average user at these other numi boards and a lot more conscious of the costs and business aspects of collecting. I like that because I am not a rich man, and so what money I spend on this has to be at a good price so that it functions not only as entertainment for me but as a long term source of stored wealth. Sure bullion is a sure fire long term storage of wealth, it was my gateway, but bullion is boring hence my title.

So I want to achieve both aesthetic enjoyment and artistic appreciation at the same time I build long term wealth. I am not a trader in either bullion or numis though, I have a day job, and so that colors my choices as well. For me to buy ten ounces of ugly silver rounds for example is obnoxious and a choice I dont like to make unless the price really beckons. I am totally willing to pay a small markup to have SAEs or what you've refered to as seminumismatics or even just decent rounds of some uniform pleasing design. I'm sure you know the feeling. At the same time I am not going to be sucked into some of the idiocy one sees in the market today with all this slabbed bullion. I don't really get the point of that. Although if its nearly the same cost as raw, why not buy graded. These are the kinds of evaluations I like to hear other people discussing and not just groupthink.

Re: boring bullion
 

Seleukus Nikator:

I have always enjoyed your various threads on coins. Having a day job and the usual demands of my money, I have a hard enough time coming up with money for PMs, let alone numismatic coins. So I made the decision that the little physical silver that I can get is a collection: maples, SAE, Libertads, Britannia, wolves, prospectors, etc. My 2 favorites are not 999's, but rather a 1880 Morgan I got and a 1903 Canadian Penny I found as a kid in a jar pulled up while tilling a field.

So now I look for the odd piece of interesting silver bullion to add to my collection, and I check my change for 80% Canadian, 90% US, wheaties, and pennies and nickles with king George.

Some day I may even be able to get a silver Roman coin you commented on once. Keep up the interesting post, just because we may not have anything to add doesn't mean that we are not reading.
:D

Re: boring bullion
 

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Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1094973) I have been reading your posts here for a long time and always appreciate them.

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Thank-you, so much.......I wish I knew even more than I do about collecting - unfortunately, a lot of the better voices on this topic seem to have disappeared from the site.<o:p></o:p>
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Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1094973) One of the things I like about the numi guys here is they are sharper than the average user at these other numi boards and a lot more conscious of the costs and business aspects of collecting. I like that because I am not a rich man, and so what money I spend on this has to be at a good price so that it functions not only as entertainment for me but as a long term source of stored wealth. Sure bullion is a sure fire long term storage of wealth, it was my gateway, but bullion is boring hence my title.

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I am far from rich myself........but once I had a few Kruggerands and Eagles, I started getting other gold and silver bullion from other countries just to have some variety when I looked at them. I especially love the Austrian Philharmonics! Then, I started getting my people who invested in gold bullion a selection of coins because they loved the variety too.......and it sparked more interest to buy more bullion, which is good.<o:p></o:p>
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But I started reading about older coins and, as Ronnie Mexico beautifully posted, I wanted something with some history, something that had actually been in circulation and handled........and was lucky enough to find some semi-numismatic and PCGS graded gold coins for about $35 more than spot at that time........I took a lot of kicks around here for "wasting" the $35.......ok, so I paid $635 instead of $600........but I got more variety, I got graded coins (I'd have spent $30 just getting them graded if I had decided to do so) and I got a bit of history..........<o:p></o:p>
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And I knew that I knew what I was doing - and I listened to others here, but walked my own path. Right now - with gold around $900 - those coins are worth retail $1200...........and, because I know what the next "bullion-baby braniac" is going to say - even if I can not find a "greater fool" to purchase it...at the very LEAST its still worth a lot more than I paid........but having studied the history of coins in recessions and depressions - I am not worried, I'll probably find a buyer if I choose to sell, it just might take a little time, and I STILL have bullion to survive on!<o:p></o:p>
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At least - for now - the price of the semi-numismatic coins is going up even more than bullion, and its a lot more fun to look at!<o:p></o:p>
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Originally Posted by Seleukus Nikator (Post 1094973) So I want to achieve both aesthetic enjoyment and artistic appreciation at the same time I build long term wealth. I am not a trader in either bullion or numis though, I have a day job, and so that colors my choices as well. For me to buy ten ounces of ugly silver rounds for example is obnoxious and a choice I dont like to make unless the price really beckons. I am totally willing to pay a small markup to have SAEs or what you've refered to as seminumismatics or even just decent rounds of some uniform pleasing design. I'm sure you know the feeling. At the same time I am not going to be sucked into some of the idiocy one sees in the market today with all this slabbed bullion. I don't really get the point of that. Although if its nearly the same cost as raw, why not buy graded. These are the kinds of evaluations I like to hear other people discussing and not just groupthink.

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Jim Sinclair and others discourage trading gold and silver - and encourage collecting the actual coins (("if you don't hold it - you don't own it!")) unless you have a bit put away and want to gamble with the extra. (To me - 'extra gold' is an oxymoron). And in the long run, most traders lose.....so I do not trade at all.<o:p></o:p>
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I have picked up some slabbed bullion tho - in certain situations........mainly, if it was about the same price as unslabbed bullion.<o:p></o:p>
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WHY??

Because I have seen that people - especially on Ebay - are, understandably, wary of ungraded coins.......when the time comes to sell, about half of my bullion gold coins are graded, I have some graded silver coins too, tho the bulk is in coin tubes or rounds.......I am not personally fooled that the graded are any better - but I know people out there pay a lot more for the slabbed and graded coins - so I considered the market.<o:p></o:p>
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The other exception is that I have a set of PCGS graded silver Eagles that is rated as one of only 28 top #1 such sets. **twirls finger in air** It doesn't really mean much to most people - but I did it for two reasons - one economic, and the other, on the suggestion of one of my coin dealers.<o:p></o:p>
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The economic reason is the more sound - you often see these sets for sale on Ebay and APMEX.........when the time comes to sell, I can add, these coins were not only graded, they were, and are, ranked.......its an official #1 set - and that might mean a few extra dollars for it. (Hey, there <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:stockticker>actually ARE</st1:stockticker> greater fools out there!) In addition, I have a certificate from them for it, and, on the side, I have had the set published in PCGS's magazine and even on their calendar - doesn't really mean much but its fun! Hey. there are only 28 such sets in the nation........<o:p></o:p>
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The other reason, and the one my coin dealer suggested, is a bit more nebulous and even I admit it probably doesn't mean much..........but SHOULD the government ever confiscate gold and or silver, and SHOULD they do what they did in 1932 and makey exceptions of collector's coins - and these are two very big IF's!!! - then a lot of people will be trying to register graded coins to make it look like they are not just hoarders but are collectors..........I now have a few years where I have created the appearance of a collector - the ground work is in place - so that, should I decide to hold on to some coins, I can play dumb and claim, as a "registered collector" I felt my coins might not be confiscatable, so I held them. ((Again, this is the world's biggest if - and the rules have changed since 1932 a lot - but hey, it also can't hurt - didn't cost me a cent to register them!))<o:p></o:p>

I only wish that, back in the 1979-80's, when I was buying gold and made some bucks selling just below the high, that I had paid more attention to a coin-collecting friend who was trying to get me interested in coins.....that didn't come for me till many, many, (many) years later........but I found him again last year, after 27 years, to discover he has almost retired, and has people who work for him selling coins - he is one of the biggest sellers on Ebay - and loaded!!!! (Did something like 7 million dollars of sales on Ebay in a year!) For me, I don't so much care about the loaded, tho bucks are nice to have (cause you can use them to buy more gold!) - but I would have bought some coins back then if I knew what I know now!!!

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There is a problem, however. Back in the day, (early 2000's) I bought original BU Franklin rolls over and over for $55 a roll. They will be awfully damn hard to part with, if I have to. Thinking of them going into a fiery furnace is also a sickening thought. I may need to get the FBL pieces to collectors before it is too late.

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Yep, I hear you man. I had the passion and smarts, but couldn't see enough profit at the time. :banghead:

Re: boring bullion
 

Seleukus Nikator, good thread.

An interest in numismatics, inherited from my grandfather when I was a kid, is what eventually brought me to PMs. Honestly, I don't think either is boring, but I do think that numis adds a level of enjoyment to investing.

Re: boring bullion
 

Coin collecting can be fun. If you have the time.


I always get a kick out of it when I see someone selling a "uncirculated" silver eagle....lol

And then some even slab them......seems Kinda dumb...But what do I know.

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Ha, I love it. I know where youre comin from. Sounds great. :applause_

Re: boring bullion
 

[quote],

Yeah I got a day job too. I just type fast and have to be at the computer anyways. And money is tight. But what I found is that when I buy PMs or numis, I dont want to sell, so it's like the savings I should have been doing all these years anyways. Used to be I would save up to buy stocks etc, same feeling, but past few years my disposable income has shrunk even as my taxable incomes gone up. We call that "family responsibilities." lol

ha thats great. I started out same way, buying up cheap 90% when I could find it, picking through the junk bins at the dealer's looking for bargains when I had a lunch hour to spare from time to time. I figured, getting pretty boring, why not put together a walker set and a merc set? My merc set is done now and my walker's are almost done, I'm down to the two hardest years, 19 and 21s. A lot of those pieces arent that great, esp the keys, but its been fun as hell putting it together.

sure I fish change and sometimes go through a few rolls I pick up at the bank. I save the newer nickels starting with the lewis and clarks.

You can get cheap Roman Silver Denarius coins for $40. septimus serverus coins have been on the market. try vcoins mall, or coast to coast.

I have just been window shopping ancients. I actually only have one, which is an Alexandrian posthumous drachm in pretty decent shape. Oh I got some Janneus leptons too as freebies but Maccabean coppers arent my cup of tea. :no_ma:

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I don't mind numismatics, but they have to contain something precious for me to really want them.

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yeah its gay, in a way. but people collect bullion for its beauty too. I cant knock it too hard since I have all these ozzie lunars and brittanias and stuff like that which is really just fancy bullion too. but what's the point of slabbing them, I dont know, except for market value.

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My theory is Bullion is slabbed in anticipation of 'predatating' on the rush of new prey that will come in once the metal markets truly explode...

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Hey there! Yooo hooooo.... come sashay on over and have a gander at my Gold Buffalo... in prithtine emmmm ettthhh thixty-nine...:no_ma:

Re: boring bullion
 

I have three hoards.
1.) Bullion that I will never sell. It's my "when the do-do hits the fan stash".
2.) Bullion that I buy as close to spot as possible then sell when I get a good increase on it for some profit.
3.) Certified gold and Morgans for fun and long term investment (hopefully).

So far I have done very well with this strategy. I'm getting good return all around and have a blast at coin shows when I find someone selling $10.00 Liberty Heads at spot! Actually happened 2 years ago! I actually dipped into savings to aquire more than I had planned. Have come out WAY ahead on that purchase!
Those "finds" are what makes the collecting part fun.

Re: boring bullion
 

Nobody should should worry about nothing. When the monetary system goes global all the currency will become plastic and look the same. Then numismatics of every country will blast off to the moon with bullion pieces following in the rare coins wake. Every person who collects coins of any kind will prosper within the next 10-20 years gaaraanteeed!!

sb:bear_w00t:

Re: boring bullion
 

Same here - which is why I only collect coins that are gold and silver.......

Re: boring bullion
 

Or because today's simple silver Eagle coin MIGHT be tomorrow's (or a couple of decades) harder to find key coin to complete a set...........unlikely, but who in 1996 thought that coin would ever become a collector's prize would 5-6 times the current price of bullion???

Re: boring bullion
 

Not the guy that tried to beat one into a ring and gave up. He then sold it to a dealer, and I rescued it from the melt bucket today.

Re: boring bullion
 

Well, I am not sure about the "greater fool" theory..........but I have no doubt whatsoever about the "great idiot" theory!

When I was with my dealer one day - some kids came in - they had a Morgan worth about $1500.........but were disappointed (to the point of violence) to discover that its not worth that much once you drill a hole into it to hang a chain thru!!

Re: boring bullion
 

I guess I am sort of collecting sae dates half heartedly but it seems gay to collect bullion to me. like collecting rounds or something. but, with the SAE I can kind of psych myself up to do it because of the weinmann styling of the obverse. makes it feel like real coin.

I was collecting bullion from various for a while, when Jen was running her bidness, but now that she's out of coins I have lost interesting in collecting bullion.

Re: boring bullion
 

And that's one reason the hobby has gone to shit over a period of the past 30 years. Numismatics have become "commoditized", and there is not one in 20 "collectors" who can consistently and accurately "grade" a coin from any specific type category. Pre-graded "slabbed" coins just give buyer and seller a starting point of arguement. Anyone buying into the righteous grading service opinion without using their own knowledge, experience, and witt is just asking to be ripped off. Their "opinion" is really no better than any other knowledgable collectors opinion. How many times have we heard of "green lable" PCGS coins being so much more desirable than newer slabs ? There is a reason. Grading standards were much tighter in the day of the green lables. Crap generic Morgan Dollars I see slabbed by the major services these days as "MS-65" would never have made MS-62 or 63 levels back in the mid 70s. "Grade creep" has been very obvious to those in this game for a period of decades rather than weeks or months. The majority of the numismatic industry is a mass-marketing sham perpetrated on the greater fool theory, where the buyer "assumes" there will always be another fool in line behind him to buy his "rarities" at even greater price levels. But like any other "investment", the bubble eventually breaks like it did for numismatics circa 1989, from levels still not recovered to for many issues.

If you want to become involved in numismatics, get the knowledge FIRST and worry about obtaining the coins later. Start off with a "collection" of relative photographs and books about your specific interest. Compare "grades", stikes, varieties of the issue, design stylization (especially on ancient or early coins from hand-cut dies) and learn as much about the subject before you buy your first coin of any great value. Never get caught up in the "numismatics as an investment" mantra. Collect what you like, and if there are others out there with the same interests, the "investment" part will eventually take care of itself. What is "popular" or "unpopular" in the field of numismatics today may be completely different in five, ten, or twenty years down the road. Fads have a way of helping you lose money just as easily as they can help you make money on your hobby. But "investment" should be a minor secondary concern to the enjoyment and knowledge you get out of any hobby.

Also, stick with truly "RARE" coins. Anything minted after around the mid 1800s is not likely to be truly "rare" in terms of type issues beyond "grade rarity" or very specific "key rarity". Once real mass production of coinage began to take hold, coins in general became "cookie cutter" examples of every other coin of the same design. Look at the "varieties" involved in modern (post 1850) coinage that are highly sought after because they are "different". Then take a look at coinage pre-1850 when varieties were just something to expect, even within same type issues. Study and learn what is really scarce or rare, but more importantly, understand WHY those particular coins are sought after above all the rest. Once you get a good handle on what is what, THEN you can start moving into numismatics with an "educated eye" and be somewhat more immune to being ripped off by the con artists pushing "numismatics" as something "always rare" or "always valuable".

Always remember, that in the world of numismatics, 2 percent of the existing collector coins carry 90 percent of the rarity and true collector appeal and value. All the rest is sawdust filling in the cake.

Here are a couple of older re-posts on the subject I wrote over the past several years.

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AuNuggets03-23-2006, 08:00 AM

If you collect anything with the sole motive of "profit", then you really need to re-think your priorities. There is a big difference between "collecting" and "investing" (or even "hoarding"). Most collectors delve into the historical and artistic aspects of the objects rather than just "how much can I make on this". If profits are the sole criteria, there are much better places and methods of "investing" your money. I have known a couple of multi-millionaire coin dealers through the years who could have "collected" anything they wanted to, but chose instead to concentrate their interests on something very simple and not very costly, certain types of tokens or other material that was off the radar screen for most collectors. They collected what they liked, popular or not, and just had a good time doing so with no profit motives involved. Funny thing is though, that when you collect with such a mindset, our collections "value" will often take care of itself. But being involved in numismatics now since the mid-60s, I will have to agree with Andy's statement that most collecting is a matter of the greater fool theory...... "it's only worth what someone else will pay for it". Where true collectors are concerned, more often than not, the monetary value of something in their collection is only of secondary concern to the personal value they derive from the study, history, and art involved. I've always had a special interest in ancient coinage of Attica, Athens (the silver owl tetradrachms) and pillar and wave type "cob" reale and escudo coins of "pirate" lore. I enjoyed them for their history and relatively crude artistry, as a change of pace to the "cookie-cutter" coins of modern era that all tend to look basically the same. The owls and cobs at one time could be had in large quantities for a song, but even those have risen considerable in monetary value to the point that I stick mostly with bullion these days on the "investment" side rather than as a "collector".

To each his own........

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AuNuggets03-24-2006, 07:58 AM

Some hobbies that make perfect sense to some of us are totally esoteric to others, and visa-versa. Some involve creativity, others physical effort, while others like art, stamp collecting, coin collecting, or "anything" collecting involves an inherent appreciation for what the object(s) represent to oneself and others. It's been a long while since I've been to a coin "show" where the primary theme was actually showing off collections. Most "shows" these days are nothing more than commercialized and concentrated flea markets for the sake of making a (greater fool) buck on a purchase, sale, or trade.

As far as a 1916-D dime goes, imagine yourself being a hunter and collector of indian arrowheads (one of my "other" hobbies - grin). On very rare occasion, you might find something within the realms of true rarity such as a Clovis or Folsom point, a bit more often perhaps a Dalton or other early Archaic piece, while the bulk of finds will be later and more commonly found points that were made in much larger numbers. It really boils down to a matter of "relative rarity" in what a collector understands to be the less frequently encountered "item" in one's particular field of collecting. A common flint projectile point (arrowhead) might carry a relatively low value of $20 or $30 depending on condition, while a genuine authenticated Clovis or Folsom might run into the thousands (again, according to style, condition, material, etc.) It's simply a matter of relative rarity = relative value according to the usual supply vs. demand fundamentals of the particular field of collecting. A 1916-D dime is often a matter of "pride of ownership" to those who understand it's relative rarity in comparison to a common similar design that is available by the tens of thousands (or more). True, you may not have alot of friends who "understand" along with you outside of the "collector base" for that particular item, but as long as that collector base exists, you can be assured of a true rarity having a greater demand than supply. That's basically what determines value in any field of collecting, and especially so when "they aren't making any more" or when the item cannot easily be duplicated.

Back in the later 90s, my wife and I were involved in the Hot Wheels and Beanie Baby collector craze, and spent our spare time driving to different towns looking for material in retail stores to sell at the "collector shows" that were held in different areas during that period. It was amazing to buy a little metal car in a retail package at a store for 99 cents, only to re-sell it the following weekend for $10 or $15 because it was perceived as scarce or rare to collectors of that junk. Same with the Beanie Babies, only moreso since "the ladies" bought that stuff with total abandon if they thought someone else might have something they didn't (or couldn't) have. Talk about your classic mania...... it was unbelievable. We also found a mailorder supplier of Hot Wheels in older retail packaging at a couple of bucks per car that often made the newcomers to the hobby feel like they had struck the mother lode. Afterall, that stuff hadn't been in retail shops for several years, and was perceived as "old = rare", while in reality it was as common as dirt. These days you can hardly give the stuff away. The wife and I eventually noticed a marked decline in interest after a couple of years of dealing in this merchandise, and decided to offer up "lock, stock, and barrel" to another dealer who jumped on our offer. Very shortly thereafter, that particular craze evaporated as quickly as it developed, and we were laughing all the way to the bank.....literally. In the 30 or so months that we were involved in the market, I'd estimate we made an average of $800-$1200 per weekend after expenses, and still doubled our investment on the bulk deal to the other dealer in the end. Even to this day, I ask myself "what the hell were we thinking", but more often....."Where the hell did all of that junk go" ? Last I heard, the dealer we sold out to had bought out several other vendors and opened a retail storefront in a nearby city just at the beginning of the decline, and went bankrupt a few months later.

Timing is everything........

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Re: boring bullion
 

Here's a nice argument for Numismatics. Even though gold bullion at the time of this video had only risen less than 1% in a 20yr time frame, numismatic coins of specific types rose 90% in just 3 years! Oh, and did you catch the price of gold at the time of this interview? $290/oz! :bear_w00t:

Re: boring bullion
 

[quote] I just bought a a gold coin cert by NGC at ms62 but I would have made it for no better than ms 60. I am not any expert grader but it seemed inflated to me. I didnt send it back though because I bought the holder at that price, what I really wanted was the coin to look at, my first kind of that type. The holder was just to facilitate resale, though resale is not in my plans.



I have heard this sage advice before and tried to stick to decent types at modest prices for my collection, so as to find out what I liked. Eventually, I put together a complete merc set, a complete franklin set, and 6 keys off from a complete walker set. That's been fun-- but the only uncirculated ones were in the easy dates. Next, I started with foreign types, and tried to stick close to melt so as not to lose my ass. Had a lot of fun with that, now I have a great set of European modern silver types, thats been fun to assemble. Now I got a yen for ancients. I been researching the market, studying grading and attribution, pretty intensely for a few months. I have come close to pulling the trigger but it seems like those prices are so stable, what's the rush! I will take my time as you say.

Well that would have cut the fun out of it for me. I sure havent done that. Anyhow, all the US coins priro to mid 1800s are expensive as hell compared to melt-- one of my touchstones of not getting ripped off-- whereas the European silvers are really close to melt a lot of them.

I recognize I havent been doing rare or scare coins, but I figure whats the hurry, I can learn grading and the skills needed at lower experience costs and build up over time. This is a long term hobby, I'm enjoying the hell out of it!

Re: boring bullion
 

What resource are you using to learn the grading of various coins? Anything with photos specifically for educational purposes would be great.

Also, what is it about the 2006 ASE that makes it a "key date"?

Re: boring bullion
 

start with coin magazines off the rack! and the redbook. there are books, too, I forgot some of the titles GIMMers recommended to me ways back.

Re: boring bullion
 

I bought "Making the Grade" by Beth Deisher for my son to use in grading his collection. It is "a grading guide to the top 25 most widely collected U.S. coins." It has great pictures and descriptions in it. Our dealer recommended it, and it is very user friendly. Don't know a good source for other coins, as Nick isn't into those YET... probably will when he can afford a little more though! He is doing pretty good for 14, though. I posted somewhere yesterday, while his friends spend their money on movies and such, he uses his for coins! He is currently saving for a SVDB and I hope he is able to get it soon. :wink:

Re: boring bullion
 

Well, I would venture to say that if silver goes high enough for long enough, even 1996's will go in the melt bucket...Mark it down.

I saw what happened in 79-80 and it changed my perception of numismatics forever...A spike bigger than that now and it will engulf everything except the very rare stuff....especially from weak handed and possibly cash-strapped collectors who cannot resist a huge profit from a few coins that will pay their mortgage for the month....

I saw HUNDREDS of BU Franklins go to melt in 80 and the smelters thought zero about it....It was sad, but you had to understand the mania.

If it had lasted longer then and/or the price had stayed high, even FAR less coins and rare stuff would have survived than did... If we were to have a similar price spike now, the melt bucket would be FULL of BU stuff, ASE's and everything else being melted into 1K ounce Comex bars and being shipped overseas to dollar heavy international investors trying to dump USD's and hedge with PM's...

It's coming IMO...

Re: boring bullion
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agfinger (Post 1115880) Well, I would venture to say that if silver goes high enough for long enough, even 1996's will go in the melt bucket...Mark it down.

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You'll get no disagreement out of me - tho I suspect those that are graded in the high MS's may get held back........but heck - once the price of the bullion gets to close to the price of the premium, sure, a lot of people will sell.<o:p></o:p>
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I bought some mid-MS graded St Gaudens at about $100 over spot price (so about $60 over the price of an eagle) when gold was between $600-700 and the "wise ones" here told me what a jerk I was for it. I said that gold would go so high that even if I didn't get the premium, no one would care........and if I DID get the premium, so much the better. The $60 difference wasn't going to make or break me - but it got me some nice and different coins to look at........and right now those coins fetch a good deal more than the bullion - so I am not complaining.<o:p></o:p>
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Agfinger (Post 1115880) I saw what happened in 79-80 and it changed my perception of numismatics forever...A spike bigger than that now and it will engulf everything except the very rare stuff....especially from weak handed and possibly cash-strapped collectors who cannot resist a huge profit from a few coins that will pay their mortgage for the month....

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I understand the mania - I was there and did VERY nicely on gold at the time. I was not at all into numismatics at that time tho, but the person I was working with was a very good friend who owned a small coin shop in a corner of his brother's jewelry shop (he is now one of the biggest dealers on Ebay clearing millions a year!) We talked about that at the time, all the things getting melted.<o:p></o:p>
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So yes - lots of BU stuff would go in - or bought by those who collect and think it might get a good grade......or, as you said, melted and shipped overseas.<o:p></o:p>
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I do not disagree with anything in your post..........<o:p></o:p>
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HOWEVER - many semi-numismatics still made it thru and, even in the worst of times, there are people with money (maybe more money than sense) who will invest in numismatics because, as things get melted, those that do not get melted get rarer and more valuable.<o:p></o:p>
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When the time comes I already have my collection divided into three parts........<o:p></o:p>
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1) The first to go (the silver will get sold when its time to sell silver and semi-numismatics)<o:p></o:p>
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2) The stuff that's more rare and desirable, or I just prefer to look at<o:p></o:p>
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3) The stuff I am holding onto till I have to sell to eat or else! :wink:

Re: boring bullion
 

I filled the 1919 dates in my walker folder this weekend, got 3 solid VGs for $60 total. Now all I have left are the 21s, the hardest dates, and the 16 s obverse. I may replace a couple others so that the minimum level is VG, right now I got one AG in it and several goods.

Re: boring bullion
 

Sounds like you guys have more money for this than I do.

I try to buy the most silver I can for the money. I would love to have buy some gold, but can't afford it.

Every few weeks a take a little cash into the coin store, and once a year a coin show comes to town. My goal is to get the most silver I can for the money. The price of items goes up and down. In this the dealers sometimes forget to change prices, or they leave the old prices.

Somethings I have bought:

I have almost twenty US silver dollars. Mostly 1983, 1984, 1986, and 1987 commeratives. When the price of a junk silver dollar is $15, but a shinny new in the box with certificate commemerative silver dollar is $13. I see a bargain. They are the same silver.

I when silver spot was $20 an ounce I bought a roll of 1964 silver Kennedy halves for $115. I thought I was getting a deal.

I love to buy the 1982 silver Washington Halves. They are cheaper than unk silver, but again the same silver content. Again they come in a case in a box with a certificate. The coin dealers think I enjoy the commemeratives, but my real goal is the silver.

Once I even found a 1780 Maria Teresa Dollar for silver spot. Granted this is more coin collecting than silver, but over 200 years old, wow.

Call me dumb, but I think I have a good plan. These are silver coins, and they are worth looking at as well.

Re: boring bullion
 

Cody,
You are on the right track...I am casually working on getting a roll of those 1986 "Staue of Liberty" proof silver dollar commemoratives one at a time... I can usually buy them under spot...

I have the same philosophy as you on these obscure silver commems and proofs....Same silver.

I also have bought a few of the $40 casino "silver strikes". They are app 1.2 ounces of .999 and I can usually get them under spot. You have to be careful though....The $10 strikes are brass and silver.

I have bought a few sterling bars for WAYY under spot. Again, same silver.

You're heading down the right path as long as you get the stuff cheap.

Re: boring bullion
 

I dont have money I make money, at a day job. And Numismatics is both a way of saving and also a hobby. If you increase your earnings potential you will increase your stash same time. Dont neglect income for PM or numis which are both essentially just savings not really investments.

I like your methods-- I have seen commems diverge like that too oncet a while. Right now the commem vendors have gotten better at keeping up iwth POS changes though and most of the easy hits are gone. You got to watch out there, as there are some "silver commems" that are often misbranded. Oncet I even bought a few misc silver half dollar commems from apmex thinking this same thing and I got CUNI ones. It was ok though, I just gave them to my kids since they were sports-olympic ones that were certainly worthe price and I think just misbranded by accident.

SO do your research ahead of time and verify that they are silver issues and not CUNI ones.

Re: boring bullion
 

I'm fortunate enough to be able to do a little of both. I have Maples and Krugerrands I'm not sentimentally attached to as well as dozens of fractional early-20th century European gold as well. I've noticed on several of them, the reverse has what looks like a shield with arms coming out the lower left and lower right, with a sword in one hand and what looks like a globe in the other. I didn't think twice about it until I saw it on both my 5 Ruble and my Austrian 20 Coronas.

Re: boring bullion
 

I know what you mean, and it was a real pleasure to me when I detected the similarity as well. But, if you get a minute pull the images up using this resource and show everybody else what you mean, thanks

http://worldcoingallery.com/

Re: boring bullion
 

Sorry for the delay. Here's the 1903 Russian 5 Rouble and the reverse side of the 1915 Austrian 20 Corona:

Re: boring bullion
 

A question...

I just picked up an 1892 Canadian quarter. A little worn, but I like it because it's old and neat.

Was wondering of the metal content as I can't seem to find info googling.

Thanks.:D

Re: boring bullion
 

From my "Standard Catalog of World Coins 1801-1900" (Chester L. Krause & Clifford Mishler, 3rd edition, p176) I see a table of Canadian quarters that shows:

Weight: 5.8100g Composition: 0.9250 silver 0.1728 ounce ASW

Specifically for 1892, there were 510,000 minted. They list $9.00 for one that is in VG-8 condition, all the way up to $1600 for MS-63

Hope that helps.

Re: boring bullion
 

Just what I was looking for, thanks.

Mine is worn, but everything is readable. I only paid $7 for it (plus the MB taxes:bear_angry:), so I didn't overpay at least.

:applause_

Re: boring bullion
 

in heraldry they describe the eagle in the romanov crest thus:

Or, a double-headed Imperial Eagle displayed Sable, twice imperially crowned proper, armed and membered Gold, langued Gules, grasping in the dexter claw an imperial sceptre, and in the sinister claw an imperial orb, all proper

I searched the habsburg family crest and got different things. some had a single eagle some double. I would say remember that both the Austro Hungarian Emperor and the Tsar both fashioned themselves Holy Emperors on the Roman model of Constantine and Carolus Magnus. So they are borrowing a similar double headed eagle. That is all I can say for now though the orb, scepter, and double eagle all have many deeper meanings.